Talk:Sander Cohen
The explaination on what happens in the game from the point of view of the player is completely useless. Yes, explaining the fight is helpful, but i've found that using proper nouns instead of 'player' makes for better and more effective encyclopedic development. Someone please fix this, I've done all of the rest of the characters that don't have "Jack" in for player. Additionally, this could do with more information about Sander himself, his insanity, and odd obsession with the Quadtych. - (Sheedy) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 21:27, 2007 September 10. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :I agree that this article needs a good bit of cleanup and rewriting to be more in line with other character articles. Mainly what I see in good character articles is that it pulls together a description of the character and their history from all the sources available: gameplay, diaries, radio msgs. That makes it much more than just a walkthrough of your encounter and interaction with the character. Just a matter of who gets motivated to do it =) --Klivian 21:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC) ::Thanks, I've been roaming around fixing little grammar/spelling errors, bad sentence structure and the like, changing things into better perspective. Is there a way to register with the site? (I'm new to editing wikis) -(Sheedy) ::: Yep.. top left corner of the site, there should be a Login and Create an Account link: http://bioshock.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup Create Account --Klivian 00:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Hi folks, great page. A couple of things: 1) I've played the PC version and don't see much difference from the Xbox version. Specifically, if you kill Cohen in Olympus, he is not "alive and instantly aggressive towards you" in Frolic. And you have his key and can open the Muse Box. Also if you set fire to the Quadtych after killing Cohen in Olympus, he will appear and attack you. All very much like the Xbox. The one difference I haven't tried is the concept of "unlocking" by killing Cohen after finishing the masterpiece (third paragraph in the Xbox version), but that sounds like something Xbox. Maybe the small patch you get with the PC version makes it like the Xbox version? (That note for the PC was made by Chasmyr on Sept. 1, but I got BS on Sept. 16 with its official release.) Can someone see if they get the same thing I do on the PC - they don't see Cohen in Frolic if they kill him in Olympus, unless they burn the Quadtych? 2) As you can see, I've posted all of Cohen's "gifts". But I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the rest of the page - rather like a bio. (I like it!) If folks want, I can instead just have a link from the bottom of the page (before my editing) to a separate page, with the detailed breakout. And leave it like a bio. Or... maybe it's time to turn it into having separate sections, with the Bio being the first section. Your thoughts? Great wiki! - MikeTheRed 18:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC) :One note: Anna Culpepper was not "Ryan's Songbird"; that was a sarcastic term used by her to refer to Sander Cohen, alluding to his excessive devotion to Ryan and his propagandistic music. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 03:45, 2007 November 6. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Sander (Homosexuality?) It seems to have slipped by whoever wrote this bio that Sander Cohen is very much a homosexual. His "desciples" were also his lovers, as was Andrew Ryan, all implied in several audio logs and other dialogue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 04:48, 2007 November 14. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :Sander may not have been Ryan's lover, but he did have feelings for him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 04:49, 2007 November 14. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! ::Although it's more of a "intellectual" love, similar ideals. Vae Infectus 03:56, March 27, 2010 (UTC) :::Why such a need to explicitly & repeatedly "classify" Sander as homosexual? (I'm referring to the article itself, not this discussion/talk page, btw.) :::As it stands, the article goes out of its way to tell us that, essentially, "We're not certain that Cohen is gay -- but we think he might be. There's no real 'proof' that he's a homosexual, so we can't be absolutely certain." :::Now, I realize the author(s) probably didn't intend this to come across as homophobic. That said: :::(1) None of the other character bios discuss sexual orientation...much less "suspected" sexual orientation. Why doesn't Ryan's bio tell us that he was "presumably heterosexual, since he impregnated Jasmine Jolene, although this could mean he was merely bisexual; there is not enough evidence to conclude either way." Why doesn't Jack's bio tell us that his "sexual orientation is unknown," or "presumed heterosexual," etc? Where is the footnote at the bottom of every page informing us that "All individuals are considered to be heterosexual unless stated otherwise?" Etc, etc. :::(2) The "need" to tag Cohen with the "believed to be gay" label results in another ugly side effect -- the immediate urge to tell us "but we don't know for sure" because...why? Obviously the intent here is to avoid disparaging Cohen without sufficient proof, and since gay=bad, falsely identifying him as such would be mighty disparaging, right? :::All in all, it's just ugly and unnecessary. Nowhere else in this wiki is a character's entire sexual orientation/history deemed relevant; instead, the tone is much more encyclopedic/factual. Example: When describing the "character" Atlas, one can omit the tabloid-sounding "presumed to be heterosexual" stuff and merely present the facts as given -- eg, "Atlas enlists Jack to help his family (or "his wife and child" or whatever) to escape Rapture." (We learn Atlas is a father and a husband...these are plot points that are appropriate to speculate about. Presumptions about his entire sexual history are, presumably, not.) :::The two posters above me seem to understand this; both merely discuss a couple of perfectly legitimate questions in encyclopedic, factual terms: Some evidence suggests Cohen was secretly in love with Ryan, but some speculate Cohen and Ryan were lovers some time in the past. Of course, only a moron would think that a man could say "I loved him" (when referring to a powerful, charismatic individual with celebrity status) without meaning that in a sexual sense...but that's beside the point. :) :::Sorry for the long rant -- but I'm new to this wiki and I'm really overwhelmed with how excellent the writing is throughout many/most of the storyline and biography sections. So you can imagine how it was really disappointing to run across Cohen's bio and find myself in the middle of this weird focus on whether a character is "gay or not gay" when that's *so* far from the point, has nothing to do with the plot, and (by the way) we really don't know the answer anyway. :::Food for thought: Near the beginning of the article, the author suggests Cohen's character is believed to be based on Salvidor Dali. Now, I think that's a big stretch...but either way, it provides us with an excellent real-world example: throughout Dali's career, we know (as in, the following statement is backed up by substantial evidence including Dali's own testimony) the brilliant artist explored all kinds of sexual experiences with various men and women *during* his long-time marriage to the woman he repeatedly called "the love of my life." (Dali would later go so far as to incorporate her actual image into every one of his Master Works, the enormous paintings that each took multiple years to complete, and were proclaimed by the artist as the pinnacle of his entire life's work.) His wife was fine with him fooling around, and he clearly adored her, but they never had a child. :::So...was Dali (the purported basis for Cohen) gay? Or did his marriage (and adoration) to his wife somehow make him immune to that charge? Was he straight before and during his marriage UNTIL the microsecond prior to his first homosexual encounter...? And did that make him gay, bisexual, or just "curious?" :::Rather than try to find an appropriate label for the guy, it might be a bit easier to merely describe his life (and how he lived it) in detail -- but just the facts, ma'am. :) :::Okay, ranting tirade ending in 5..4..3.. ::://Fjord Ubiquity// —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 14:28, 2008 June 25. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! ::::It could just be that he isn't a homosexual, if one observes the audio file when he notably remarks "a man I once loved", one must keep in mind that he considers himself an artist, a musical genius, and a literary master. In keeping with this, the love remark could well mean that he simply considered Ryan a close friend, as many plays from Shakespearian and similar works made similar comments, and only meant someone who is close. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 15:00, 2008 December 16. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :::::In response to the comments above concerning Cohen's sexuality: While I agree with what was said, I feel as though those assumptions about Cohen came from the other well...assumption, that his disciples are his former lovers. Cohen makes a comment over the radio about Finnegan stating, "I admired his ... carriage." While I am not saying this is necessarily true, I am just simply speculating where this idea could of came from. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 07:20, 2009 May 21. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! ::::: ::::: :::::It should be noted that :::: ::::# Sander Cohen likened himself to a "pregnant momma" upon nearing completion of the quadtych. :::: ::::*a.This may be a "philosophic homosexuality" ::::*b. "Philosophic homosexuality" : the idea that genders are interchangeable. ::::*c. Point b may have a prominent part in rapture's genetic future. ::::: :::::2.In an an interview about the origins of Bioshock,Ken Levine stated : ::::: 'There was another story before that about a cult deprogrammer. I don't know if you know what a cult deprogrammer is; it's someone who goes to take people out of cults to deprogram them so they no longer believe in it. It's a weird thing, because they're basically kidnapping people. are people who hired people to example deprogram their daughter who had been in a lesbian relationship. They kidnap her and reprogram her, and it was a really dark person, and that was the of character that you were. It went through a lot of changes. That wasn't really fleshed out, we just needed something, and I said, "Maybe I'll develop this, maybe I won't." 3.Are little sisters "heterosexual"? Kantarky 19:19, July 13, 2010 (UTC) ::::: Alexander Cohen? I do not have an account here, but was curious if anybody else thinks that Alexander H. Cohen, "Lord of the Flops", could possibly be, in some way, related to the character design of Sander? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_H._Cohen 17:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC) kurushi Random Comment In the movie "Last Kiss", isn't the art studio called "Sander Cohen"? Just thought that was interesting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 23:30, 2008 July 24. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Fred Astaire? I saw a bit of this movie with this actor named Fred Astaire, he bears an uncanny resemblance to Sander but less rough looking, especially in the small picture of him on the two way, just google it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 09:08, 2008 July 27. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Rise Rapture! Rise! If anyone can find the lyrics to his oddball opera song, delete my words and post it here. It can be found on the loading screens, but my copy of the game got all scratched and I can't play it no more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 13:58, 2009 January 7. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Oh Rise, Rapture Rise! We send our hopes into the skies! Oh Rise, Rapture, Rise! Upon your wings our dreams will fly. A city in the ocean deep, A promise that we'll always keep, To boldly turn our eyes upon the priiiiiiize! So Rise, Rise, Rise! Oh Rise, Rapture﻿ Rise! We merrily pinch every crime, Oh Rise, Rapture Rise! To help us crush parasites inside. A city on Poseidon's door, A set of ideas we adore. A philosophy we all can emphasize So Rise, Rise, Rise! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 06:01, 2009 June 26. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :Sounds like it's the Rapture National Anthem. --Vae Infectus 18:00, December 10, 2009 (UTC) ::Well, this version of the song is certainly amusing, but the real transcript can be seen at Rise, Rapture, Rise. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 20:23, April 15, 2010 (UTC) Laser pistol See in one of the pics on the sander cohen page, there appears to be some kind of pistol that I've not seen in the game. Can anyone explain that? It looks like some kind of Bioshockesque pistol. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 02:09, 2009 January 22. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Cut Content Apparently one of the demos of the game before its release talked about retrieving a record for Cohen, seems like a big cut content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 18:03, 2009 February 26. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! Out of Order I killed Rodiguez before Cobb and put their pictures in that order. The only problem is:.... There Is No Quadtych When I try to Put Cobb's picture! I then tried using a hidden thing called: "Cohen's Masterpiece", but it doesn't work!!! Why??!!! I'm on the PC 01:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Survival? Could it be possible that the crazed Sander Cohen lives? He seems to share DNA with Ryan considering his ability to use bathyspheres. Also consider the event triggered after attacking his masterpiece, as the event seems too believable to be considered a glitch, as well as the possibility to avoid Cohen's demise by choosing not to kill him period. Perhaps this is a hint showing he has indeed survived Jack's murderous rampage during his delightful stay in Rapture.--Atlas216 22:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC) :In my opinion, the "glitch" with the quadtych seems to be more of an easter egg for nostalgic gamers than any sort of canonical event. There are many plotholes in Rapture's history. Seeing that Ryan didn't come back to life even though there were other Vita-chambers scattered across Rapture could possibly prove that the developers intended Cohen to stay dead as well. 22:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC) ::I never though of this before, but since Cohen's death is completely up to the player, it's possible for Cohen to have survived the events of Bioshock. Hopefully, Bioshock 2 will have some kind of explanation of what happened to him Ant423 05:59, January 22, 2010 (UTC)Ant423 :::It is likely canonical that he died in his apartment by Jack, since it is presumed the "good" ending is the canon one, and keeping with that, the achievements could be seen as a means to show what did happen. Just my guess. Miumaru 00:33, April 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::Several interviews before the release of BioShock 2 mentioned that the developers intended either ending ("good" or "bad") to be canon. Why would the "good" ending mean Jack killed Cohen anyway? The choice to kill Cohen and the choice to save Little Sisters are unrelated. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 19:51, April 18, 2010 (UTC) Easter Egg/Designer Joke I would be surprised it I am the only one who has seen this. In Eve's Garden, as Jack walks to the bedroom, the door is closed and Jasmine Jolene's ghost can be heard inside. Through the crack at the bottom of the door, an eerie shadow is cast in the red light. The thing that's funny about this is, that the shadow is made by two Sander Cohens using the ghost pole dancer animation. The animation plays twice, followed by the disappearance of the Cohens. I found this by disabling the clipping. Go see it, it's pretty funny! EDlTOR 06:31, December 7, 2009 (UTC) :Oh god I can't wait to see that! Just one more reason to look forward to winter break! After this has been confirmed we could put it in the article as trivia. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 11:26, December 7, 2009 (UTC) :Excellent, excellent XD I almost want to upload screenshots as proof... but maybe that isn't appropriate? ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 05:23, December 12, 2009 (UTC) ::ooohhh post it on youtube, if possable. that would be totaly lol-able! ::*~*~*~* Little sister7364 ~*~*~*~ Why would is be inappropriate? It is just Cohen, right? or am I misunderstanding what is being said? : I found it on youtube, enjoy =D : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EDsAtVeHpg&feature=related Pauolo 21:24, July 4, 2010 (UTC) Unstable BEFORE he used ADAM? Based on some of his audio diaries, he was probably emotionally unstable before he became a Houdini Splicer. The ADAM just made it worse. --Vae Infectus 19:02, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Am I really the first to notice? I searched the page and all... Does anyone else think his Radio Portrait looks almost exactly like Klee Irwin, pitchman for a colon cleansing infomercial? Could it possibly be intentional, for whatever reason? 23:07, January 10, 2010 (UTC) Bioshock 2? Does anyone think he will return in bioshock 2 because if so i wonder wht he wld look like? If so he would probably be very deformed and crazier!!! D: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 00:52, 2010 February 5. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :Unfortunately he didn't, it is possible that Jack did kill him in Bioshock, then again if he did survive, his mental instability would probably be quite close to that of the Joker from the Batman comics, never mind the disfigurement. If he is still alive in 1968, then he will probably return in Bioshock 3.Vae Infectus 16:01, March 4, 2010 (UTC) ::A quote from the April 2010 issue of GameInformer, under the heading TidBits: Fun facts about Bioshock 2 Written by 2K Games: ::"At one point, Sander Cohen was planned to Reappear in Bioshcok 2 as a 20-foot-tall Freudian monster bunny." ::I swear to god I am not making that up. --Ih8pkmn 23:21, March 13, 2010 (UTC) :::I've gone through the ADAM harvesting in the Dionysus Park Cohen's Collection (both corpses) and after harvesting the 2nd corpse, I think I can hear him laughing after his masterpiece stops playing? A joke thrown in by the devs or is he still alive? Vae Infectus 03:11, March 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::The Brute Splicers sometimes reference Cohen. Interestingly, they refer to him in past tense, implying he's dead. Ant423 01:17, March 31, 2010 (UTC)Ant423 :::::Either that or they haven't seen or heard from him in a while, so as far as they are concerned, he's as good as dead. Vae Infectus 17:35, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I have never heard laughter after gathering in Cohen's Collection. I think the laughter you are referring to may just be a random background noise. All throughout Siren Alley I kept hearing laughter, but it didn't happen at any specific time, and it was just a sound to give atmosphere. If you did hear laughter after gathering I doubt it was part of a scripted event specifically for that gather sequence. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 15:36, April 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::::I gathered first in the room where the first Houdini Splicer was fought, then the room following that. In that sequence, the laughter was just at the beginning of the first harvest and at the end of the sending one. Vae Infectus 22:19, May 6, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::You were right, there is a laugh! I have been going through the sound files, and there are actually three version of the Scherzo in Dionysus Park: one with the laugh at the beginning, one with it at the end, and one with no laugh at all. I apologize for doubting you! ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 19:36, June 28, 2010 (UTC) The Rapture version of the Joker? I see some similarities between Sander Cohen and the Joker, both see themselves as entertainers and have a skewed perception of it. Vae Infectus 04:00, March 27, 2010 (UTC) And both have creepy makeup.MarcoDelMarco 00:50, May 7, 2010 (UTC) Burning the Quadtych You don't have to set the quadtych on fire to incur Sander's wrath. Even hitting it with the wrench will cause him to appear. Ant423 23:54, April 3, 2010 (UTC)Ant423 Possiblilty Is it possible that Sander Cohen painted the paintings depicting Jack's adventure in Bioshock 2? Because in Bioshock 1 after you kill Cohen's second apprentice he says something along the lines of "You're not a moth, you're an angel! Maybe I should paint you... I've never painted an angel before..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 20:31, 2010 May 3. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! : It possible, but unlikely. Due to the fact that the player has the option to kill Cohan in Bioshock, I doubt he will reappear in person in any other instalments after the events in Bioshock. This is due to how the player plays, being a choice-based game. Many choice related caractor will usually not appear in ways that will disrupt the canon on each differtant ending. Cohan has the same chance of appearing as Stanley Poole, Grace Halloway and Sofia Lamb; unlikey other than comments about them and old Audio Diaries. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091201175140/bioshock/images/thumb/f/f7/80.png/20px-80.png El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 20:59, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Well then who painted them? I doubt any Splicers were up to the task, and I didn't take Lamb (or Holloway, or Sinclair, or Poole) for an artist... (Oh yes and BTW, I was the one who put up the original question, I was on a school computer and it didn't accept my usual account) ::And considering Cohen's death doesn't affect the endings in any way, I think there's more of a chance of him returning than people like Lamb. Phoenix saturn 22:30, May 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Well there are many artists in Rapture, they are simply unnamed. Just because Cohan is the only named one doesn't make him the only one. As for reappearing, say you play the first game and you kill Cohan. If he suddenly appeared in the third, wouldn't that make your playthrough in the first game impossible?? He could still appear, however, though he'd need some kind of story, explaning how he came back if killed or if not killed, otherwise the choices in the first game would be screwy. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091201175140/bioshock/images/thumb/f/f7/80.png/20px-80.png El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 22:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Hi I'm new. So I have to disagree about making your choices in the first game becoming void because in Bioshock 2 when you get telekinesis you go into a room and see three splicers below you. They start talking about Jack and how he went to the surface with all the saved Little Sisters. This shows that either way Bioshock 2 was continued as if you were a good guy all through out the game. It wouldn't be drastic if developers decided to thrown Cohen back into the mix for another game. BTW have yo guys heard of a rumor of a Bioshock MMO? Google it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 23:53, 2010 May 3. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :::::I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over again. Yes, they mention Jack. But they have to differant storie, one says Jack adopts the Little Sisters, the other says he's in possion of a bomb. These represent both the god and bad endings of the game. So we're left without a definate answer of what Jack did afther leaving Rapture. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091201175140/bioshock/images/thumb/f/f7/80.png/20px-80.png El Ammo Bandito, "¿Sería tan amable?" 02:55, May 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Well, He does beat Jack back to his apartment witch means he can use the bathasphers, so maybe he can use the vita-chambers.MarcoDelMarco 13:55, May 6, 2010 (UTC) skimmed and saw all the hooplah over whether Cohen's alive or not. Allow me to argue in favor of Cohen's return and here's a few reasons why. In a GameInformer article, there was a quote from the developers of Bioshock stating that they had intended Cohen's return (see the above mention of 20ft-tall-freudian monster bunny), but ultimately did not include him. Whether the player did or did not kill Cohen in their playthrough of Bioshock 1, the end decision and "official" storyline is up to the creators. Take, for example, Silent Hill 2. The true ending is subject to speculation...until Silent Hill 4 came out. No matter how nice the good ending seemed, tough nuts, the bad ending it is. Not the best arguement, but you get the gist.' 15:35, June 12, 2010 (UTC)'